Christian Right and the 50th
Kaloogian advocate Jonathan Krive of the right-wing Conservative High School Conservative group wrote to this blog again today with a bit of a boast.
Krive claims that Kaloogian supporters canvassed churchgoers in the 50th yesterday and distributed tens of thousands of pro-life fliers. He says Kaloogian’s backers had "the church community to ourselves, none of the other candidates bothered to ask the Christian community for their vote. Not Roach. Not Morrow."
I’ve not heard anything from Eric Roach’s supporters about their efforts yesterday but I would imagine they are also working very hard to line up support from Mormon’s since Roach himself is Mormon. That might also explain why Roach’s campaign did not join Mr. Krive and the Kaloogian campaign at the Christian churches yesterday.
If representatives from Morrow or Roach or Bilbray campaign have information to contradict Mr. Krive’s claims please speak up. The Christian Right has played a major impact on certain San Diego elections, and it will be interesting to see if they turn out en masse for any one particular candidate.
Lord save me from your followers.
Comment by Nik — April 10, 2006 @ 8:40 pm
What a twist of the truth… Kaloogian’s minions didn’t “canvass the Christian community” yesterday. They made their forays into church parking lots during services and plastered Kaloogian flyers all over the windshields. Many Pastors and lay leaders removed the flyers from the windshields and tossed them. One pastor at a large church in Rancho Santa Fe told me he caught the culprits and they had the audacity to be confrontational with him and said they could do anything they wanted.
This pastor told me personally that he and his fellow pastors respect Bill Morrow for his consistent testimony and God-honoring campaign and that he doesn’t stoop to these tactics. That’s why Pastor Chuck Smith - Calvary Chapel gladly and whole-heartedly endorsed Bill Morrow because he appreciates Morrow’s integrity and accountability - he doesn’t just TALK, he the walks the walk.
Go to Bill Morrow.com and see the fine solid endorsements he enjoys from the LOCAL Christian community as well as others.
I also am privy to communications showing that Jonathan has personally tried to get Christian leaders who are supporting Morrow to compromise their faith and their support by suggesting they “keep their formal endorsements of Morrow - but behind the scenes get churches to back Kaloogian”. This is verifiable - and reprehensible but it is what many of us have come to expect of Howard. His sleazy campaign tactics have caused him to lose stature and crediblity with the very community he claims to have a lock on.
Comment by Cara Thomas — April 10, 2006 @ 8:56 pm
Because you have readers at this blog who believe that there really is a constitutional wall of separation between the church and the state I hestitate to discuss what might be going on with the church side of that wall for fear of bringing an offense!
Comment by John — April 10, 2006 @ 8:59 pm
Wow, what a completely useless comment! Thanks!
Because this blog also has readers who think that they’re voting in the interests of upholding Christian values when they elect people who support forced sweatshop labor, prostitution, and abortions for southeast asian children and young adults, I also hestitate to discuss what’s going on on the OTHER side of the wall for fear of bringing an offense!
Comment by Nik — April 10, 2006 @ 9:09 pm
Wherever people are on whatever side of an imaginary and unconstitutional “wall” I do believe that everyone wants a person representing us whose character and integrity is unquestioned - and a person who is a strong defender of the constitution and the actual First Amendment that says NOTHING about a wall of separation - well, that would be Senator Bill Morrow.
Comment by Cara Thomas — April 10, 2006 @ 9:23 pm
The problem Cara is that Morrow cannot win. Kaloogian cannot win.
Roach is the only conservative with Christian values who can beat Bilbray.
Conservatives need to come over to Roach to get this done.
Comment by conservatives unit — April 10, 2006 @ 9:44 pm
And you are simply wrong. Why would anyone want an unknown who can SAY anything… where’s the proven record? This seat is too important to bet on an unknown…Roach and other unknowns leave too many questions unanswered… except that he is personally capable of BUYING the election as he has bought his “volunteers”… How sad that dollars buy “pseudo-loyalty”…
Comment by Cara Thomas — April 10, 2006 @ 10:00 pm
Actually, the problem is that some people care more about not letting gays get married or scientists doing embryonic stem cell research or letting women, their families, and doctors choose what happens to their bodies than they do about escalating anti-American sentiment among nation-less terrorist organizations and coutries with nuclear weapons programs.
The problem is that conservative Christian values don’t seem to be universal — that protecting a fetus is more important than protecting a family of small children from mortar attacks.
The problem is that some Christians believe that scientific discovery and research is an attack on their faith, and therefore they try and suppress scientific results and attempt to minimize their legitimacy by forcing schools to teach sound science side-by-side with a completely laughable hypothesis with absolutely no intelligent scientific support.
The problem is that “turn the other cheek” and “thou shalt not kill” and “blessed are the poor” have been removed from the Bible and replaced with “blow them all away in the name of the Lord” (Jerry Fallwell), “I don’t know about this doctrine of assasination, but I think we should go ahead and do it” (Pat Robertson) and “So many of the [Hurricane Katrina refugees] in the arena, were underpriveleged anyway, so this - this (chuckle) is working very well for them” (Barbara Bush).
An equal percentage of liberals and conservatives are Christian. The difference is how they interpret and prioritize their core values and beliefs, and how the national Parties (GOP and Dem) approach people of faith. The Republican Party is very blatant about selling the idea that they are the party of Christ.
It isn’t true.
Comment by Nik — April 10, 2006 @ 10:15 pm
Many liberals are atheists and agnostics telling Christians what their beliefs SHOULD mean…even though atheists and agnostics don’t share these beliefs. Most Christians see right through that act.
Comment by Cross Tabs — April 10, 2006 @ 10:21 pm
Come now, Cross Tabs — who’s putting on the act now?
Most *people*, regardless of their faith, hold the same core values. Being a decent person isn’t a uniquely Christian trait. In fact, there are many people of all faiths who would point out the brutality and inhumanity of Christians, historically. (The Crusades, Inquisition, and Holocaust come to mind.) This isn’t meant as an attack on Christianity, but just as a candid, honest look at history.
It’s funny that you mention agnostics and atheists specifically — as if this nation only includes Christians and non-religious people. There are millions of Hindus, Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, etc.. in this country.
Liberals, of all faiths and none, would just prefer that the federal government actually stick to the Supreme-Court-defended notion of the “separation” of Church and State and uphold the establishment clause of the First Amendment — so that all people are free to practice their own religions without fear of discrimination or reprisal.
For example, I don’t know many people (regardless of political stripe) who really give a crap about whether people say “Merry Christmas” instead of “Happy Holidays” (or vice versa). They *do* care, though, whether tax dollars via local, state, or federal expenditures go towards erecting and maintaining a monument promoting any one religion - like putting the Ten Commandments in a Federal Courthouse.
As another example, wanting the City of Encinitas to hold a Holiday Parade isn’t an act of “war on Christianity”, it’s an effort to be inclusive of all citizens in the city. You would be extremely hard-pressed to find me one liberal, atheist, agnostic, Jewish, Hindu, Muslim, or Scientologist who would’ve cared if a group of churches held a privately-funded Christmas parade down 101 in Encinitas.
Comment by Nik — April 10, 2006 @ 11:27 pm
I love how liberals are so big on the “establishment” clause but care very little for the “free exercise” clause. Very much like them to pick and choose parts of the constitution to celebrate. And tell me how having a christmas parade or a cross on a veteran’s memorial is “establishing” a religion. It’s not. But perhaps Nik would like us to go across Arlington National Cemetary tearing down crosses.
Comment by Cross Tabs — April 10, 2006 @ 11:32 pm
Not to try to turn this into “San Diego theology” but I have a very simple question for you, Nik. Do you believe Jesus died and rose from the dead 3 days later? You are free to believe whatever you want on this. But if you don’t believe that, then please dispense with your sanctimonious lessons on “turning the other cheek” “thou shalt not kill” and “blessed are the poor”. If you don’t share the belief you don’t get to give sermons to the believer.
Comment by Cross Tabs — April 10, 2006 @ 11:35 pm
Tearing down crosses in Arlington National Cemetary? Now that’s just disgusting and offensive. How dare you? To think that you and I used to have what I’d consider friendly and intellectual discussions here, and you try to pull that on me!?!
What have I said that was adverse to the free exercise clause?
Didn’t I just say that you’d be very hard pressed to find anyone who’d be upset of churches held a Christmas parade?
My own religious beliefs have nothing to do with our Constitution or the beliefs of any other citizen of the country.
I was just highlighting the arguably un-Christian statements made by people who are leaders of the Christian Right. These people have gained money and power using their leadership positions in a political movement of religious supporters. They use the pulput to motivate their followers to anger and hatred — for example, it was because of gay people that we were attacked on 9/11 — it was because of gay people that God threw Hurricane Katrina at the Gulf Coast. It is because we have gay people in the military that we’re suffering so many casualties in Iraq.
These are the kinds of statements made by these leaders. I don’t have to be a Christian to condemn remarks like these, using the very words of the Messiah they profess to worship to do so.
Comment by Nik — April 10, 2006 @ 11:58 pm
I’ll take that as a no. Therefore, you don’t get to try to instruct Christians on what THEY believe. And now your changing your argument to all Christians are homophobes. Well how very enlightened of you. It wasn’t what I was talking about. I was referring to your sermonizing about “turning the other cheek” and “blessed are the poor” and “thou shalt not kill”. Since you aren’t a believer your misinformed cherry-picking of scripture now makes sense. My point is if you don’t believe what Christians believe…then you don’t get to tell them how THEIR beliefs should make THEM think or behave.
As far as the crosses in Arlington you bemoaned the The “tax dollars via local, state, or federal expenditures go towards erecting and maintaining a monument promoting any one religion”. Um…what’s a cross maintained on Federal land in Arlington, if not that? If you want to get all indignant and huffy with me, don’t make statements like that. I was merely taking your point to the logical conclusion.
Comment by Cross Tabs — April 11, 2006 @ 12:06 am
Although he personally isn’t Christian, and it seems important to you Cross Tabs that he isn’t, how about this–I am a Christian, and I agree with the essence of what Nik wrote in his criticisms of the Religious Right political establishment in this country. It is a political and self-enriching economic force, that uses spirituality in an unholy way to achieve selfish ends. While most people who support it have honest and loving Christian hearts, they are blind to the greed and lack of true Christian living among its leaders. The leaders pay lip service to divisive and emotional “morals” issues, but the inconsistency and lack of empathy in their positions shows their true motivations are appealing to the crowd not following the Bible.
I believe in Jesus Christ and accept him as my personal Savior. I’m a believing, practicing Christian according to whatever measure you want to use, but I’m not going to trot out a list like some kind of resume because that would be exactly the unseemly, unholy use of holy things that I find so disgusting about most of the religious right.
Regarding “I love how liberals are so big on the “establishment” clause but care very little for the “free exercise” clause.” This one always stumps me. Name one way that “free exercise” is being attacked in this country. So you can’t have an official prayer in a taxpayer funded school. That doesn’t mean you can’t pray for goodness sakes! I said prayers at school all the time when I was that age (not to mention you can always pray in your car, at home, at church, …) Nobody can stop you from doing that, and nobody is trying. But I can tell you for one thing I would be very uncomfortable attending a school where a non-Christian prayer was part of the daily routine. Why should I impose a Christian prayer on others’ kids? You can’t sing “Silent Night” in school. That is as it should be I think!! When I sing the words, “Jesus, Lord at the birth/ Jesus, Lord at thy birth” I do so because I want to, through song, proclaim that doctrine–Jesus is Lord, my Lord. Singing hymns is exactly like praying to me, they aren’t just some pretty poetry words, they are specific declarations of belief. To say they are just “cultural” or “historical” I think totally demeans them. I wouldn’t be singing them if that’s all they were. So, if they are prayers, and solemn declarations that I believe in the doctrines that are being sung, then no, they absolutely don’t belong in schools.
I know you won’t agree with me Cross Tabs, but I can’t believe you don’t realize there are (many) people like me out there.
Comment by Jesus is Lord, and yes, I am a liberal — April 11, 2006 @ 12:47 am
No, you were twisting my words. You’ll find a lot more than crosses in Arlington National Cemetary — as such, there is no issue of promoting any one religion there. My example was very specific — erecting a sculpture of the 10 commandments in a federal courthouse.
And where did I suggest that all Christians were homophobes? Again, you’re twisting my words.
Let me make this perfectly clear — I am NOT attacking you. I am NOT attacking Christianity. And have NOT tried to tell Christians how to behave.
If this is the impression I’ve given, then please accept my most humble apologies.
I simply pointed out very specific instances of inflammatory rhetoric used by accepted leaders of the Conservative Christian movement to rally their supporters to political action.
It is a fact that leaders of the evangelical Christian Right have used the pulpit to incite anger and activism for purely political purposes.
My examples in previous comments and threads have included
* blaming acts of terrorism and natural disaster on homosexuals
* calling for the assassination of a democratically elected leader of a foreign nation
* advocated the killing of all Arab Muslims in Jesus’ name
* interfering with the private lives of the Schiavo family
* using the promise of a constitutional ban on gay marriage to motivate people to be active in campaigns and elections
* Using “Justice Sunday” and other events to support judicial nominees who have a track record of being anti-choice
* Using Christian churches and activism groups to raise money for the legal defense funds of indicted Republican officeholders and party operatives
* Christian churches coordinating efforts with congressional campaigns in violation of federal law
None of these are arguments against Christianity. They are a short list of grievances I have with specific people who use the faith and, frankly, gullibility of their believers/supporters to achieve political, not religious, results.
Comment by Nik — April 11, 2006 @ 12:55 am
Most of the people preaching about how conservatives don’t follow christian teachings aren’t christians. Just check out the huffington post sometime. You’ll see one post about how christians should believe this this and this and the bible says this and that. And the very next post will be what a bunch of idiots christians are for believing in Jesus being resurrected. I know there are christians who (for some reason) believe what you believe. But my point is, there are mostly Nik’s out there who like to bash us, while not even sharing our beliefs.
Comment by Cross Tabs — April 11, 2006 @ 12:58 am
Seek and ye shall find. If you are looking for atheist anti-Christian rhetoric on the left, NO DOUBT you will find it. But you’ll find just about any kind of rhetoric on the left (too much talking all the time is one very fair criticism of liberals). But look for Christians on the left, and you will find many, many, many.
Comment by Jesus is Lord, and yes, I am a liberal — April 11, 2006 @ 1:19 am
Cross Tabs — I am *not* bashing you!
If you want evidence to support my claims, then not only should you check out the Huffington Post, but check out Little Green Footballs, Free Republic, the 700 Club, the Christian Coalition, the Aryan Nations, the Washington Times, Bill O’Reilly, Sean Hannity, etc. etc. etc…
When have I ever said that Christians were a bunch of idiots? When have I said anything derogatory about you personally or your faith generally?
I’ve ALWAYS limited my comments to those who preach intolerance and aggression for partisan political gain from the pulpit.
Comment by Nik — April 11, 2006 @ 1:58 am
I feel like we need a Gil joke to lighten the tension around here a little bit. Gil, where you at! (Hey, no anti-Christian jokes though!)
Comment by yeah right — April 11, 2006 @ 2:14 am
We don’t need a joke, there are just a lot of confused people trying to talk with each other and ALL claiming to speak for Christ. It amazing how often He is used in politics by one side or the other. I would suggest that folks go right to the source and read Psalm 2 to see what Jesus thinks about all of our little political actions and reactions!
Comment by John — April 11, 2006 @ 2:56 am
Oh, you mean the book of Psalms traslated from the Hebrew and Greek texts found in the Old Testament? The ones that pre-date Christ by hudreds of years?
Comment by Nik — April 11, 2006 @ 4:11 am
Don’t try to make excuses Nik, just read it!
Comment by John — April 11, 2006 @ 7:04 am
Why would Nik do that? He’s not a Christian, he just like to tell Christians how their beliefs should make them think.
Comment by Cross Tabs — April 11, 2006 @ 4:20 pm
Go ahead and keep making personal attacks guys — it makes it so much easier to avoid actually addressing the issue.
I noticed that both CT and John are more concerned with whether I am or am not a Christian, and whether I have or have not read Psalms 2, than anything I or JiL,ay,Iaal said about the leaders of the Christian Right.
You’re also completely unwilling to admit that there exists a large Christian Left; as if Christianity and Conservatism are one and the same ideology.
None of that has anything to do with my personal beliefs. You (CT and John) keep saying that I’m trying to tell Christians (and, by extension and admission, you two) how to behave, when I’ve never said anything negative about you personally. Quite the opposite, in fact.
I’ve stated many times now that I’m not attacking you and I respect your personal beliefs, your right to have them, and the freedom to practice and express those beliefs.
You’ve only declared that you think I’m not a Christian and therefore have absolutely no right to tell Christians how to act and what to believe.
I’ve not ONCE tried to tell Christians how their system of beliefs should affect their behavior. I’ve ONLY mentioned how the Constitution of the United States dictates that EVERYONE behave — regardless of religious affiliation.
Comment by Nik — April 11, 2006 @ 5:21 pm
You’re actually wrong. The constitution dictates how CONGRESS should behave (the President too in a few instances). Read it.
Comment by Cross Tabs — April 11, 2006 @ 5:30 pm
Oh please. You’re being deliberately nit-picky. And you still apparently prefer to attack me instead of discuss the point.
While you were at it, you should have mentioned that the Constitution also describes the role of the judicial branch.
Once again, what does any of this have to do with the leaders of the Christian Right, their inflammatory rhetoric, and political machinations?
Comment by Nik — April 11, 2006 @ 6:14 pm
“In fact, there are many people of all faiths who would point out the brutality and inhumanity of Christians, historically. (The Crusades, Inquisition, and Holocaust come to mind.)”
Uh huh, would those instances offered be essentially Christian in nature, or human foibles?
Were the Crusades (goal: taking Bibilical Lands from Muslims) the same as or different from the Muslims over-running Asia, Africa, and Europe, and murdering or converting people at the point of the sword?
Was the Holocaust Christian in basis, or based on Hitler’s twisted paganist beliefs?
In fact, your “people of all faiths” are either ignorant, or anti-Christian (or both).
Comment by Guy — April 11, 2006 @ 7:41 pm
I actually have no idea what the content of the constitution has to do with the discussion of today’s conservative christian movement. You are the one who claims the constitution is the basis on how people should behave. I merely pointed out that such a statement is ridiculous. The constitution was created by the people to tell government what their limits were. But your statement that “the constitution dictates how EVERYONE should behave” is frankly ludicrous, and if you were someone in power, would be a pretty scary belief.
Comment by Cross Tabs — April 11, 2006 @ 8:28 pm
CT: The constitution is the basis for the system of laws under which we, as citizens, are governed. I’ve already clarified my poor choice of words.
Furthermore, I never said anything about the Conservative Christian movement as a whole. I’ve consistently called out the leaders of the Religious Right for using their positions of power and influence to deliver a message for purely partisan political ends, often at odds with accepted mainstream Christian values.
You’re still dodging.
Guy: Welcome to the conversation. How the Crusades compares to heinous acts by other religious groups is irrelevant. That they were both heinous doesn’t absolve either of their atrocity.
And whether the holocaust was based in Christianity or Hitler’s twisted paganist beliefs, the fact remains that Hitler and the German Nazi Party gained political power and widespread popular support in Germany by using Christianity in their propaganda. The swastika, after all, is a version of the Christian cross.
No one is being anti-Christian, least of all me, by acknowledging that historically, people have used religion in order to accomplish some pretty horrible things.
One of my original points was that the leaders of the Conservative Christian Movement push the notion that the Republican Party is the Party of Christianity, and that Democrats and Liberals must be bad people because they are Not Republicans and therefore Not Christians and do not share a common decency or hold common values. And they motivate a conservative Christian base to activism by preaching anger and intolerance against gays, “secular liberals”, etc.
I simply said that being a decent person is not a uniquely Christian trait, nor is it a uniquely conservative one. And I happened to mention three examples where historically, Christianity was used to motivate a large group of people to do horrible things.
Not all non-Christians are evil people, and not all Christians are decent. There are good and bad apples in every bunch. Now how is that anti-Christian?
Comment by Nik — April 11, 2006 @ 9:36 pm
Dodging what? You started this argument with your claim that
“The problem is that “turn the other cheek” and “thou shalt not kill” and “blessed are the poor” have been removed from the Bible ”
and “The Republican Party is very blatant about selling the idea that they are the party of Christ. It isn’t true.”
I asked you if you were, yourself, a christian. And if not, then what made you such an authority on Christian belief systems, and how this should translate politcally. You are still “dodging” that one. And its because you have no answer for it.
Comment by Cross Tabs — April 11, 2006 @ 9:54 pm
Again, you’re selectively quoting my argument.
I have consistently criticized the leaders of the Christian Conservative movement for making outrageous and politically charged statements contrary to mainstream Christian beliefs and values.
My original statement, in its entirety, is: The problem is that “turn the other cheek” and “thou shalt not kill” and “blessed are the poor” have been removed from the Bible and replaced with “blow them all away in the name of the Lord” (Jerry Fallwell), “I don’t know about this doctrine of assasination, but I think we should go ahead and do it” (Pat Robertson) and “So many of the [Hurricane Katrina refugees] in the arena, were underpriveleged anyway, so this - this (chuckle) is working very well for them” (Barbara Bush).
The point was the juxtaposition of widely-known Christian mantras with contradictory statements made by leaders of the Conservative Christian movement. I’ll grant you that “removed from the Bible” was a bit much, but you can’t possibly think I meant it literally.
My personal beliefs have nothing to do with the argument. One does not have to be a Christian to comment on Christianity. You’ve made many comments about illegal immigration — are you an illegal immigrant? You’re commenting on campaigns and political issues. Are you a candidate?
I’m not dodging your question because it has absolutely NOTHING to do with the inflammatory remarks made by leaders of the Christian Right. It’s purely a diversionary tactic and you keep beating it to death because you can’t bring yourself to either praise or condemn the likes of Fallwell and Robertson.
Comment by Nik — April 11, 2006 @ 10:25 pm
So guilt by association is your argument! I finally get it (I should have known, since you are a Busby supporter). And I also never knew Barbara Bush was a prominent evangelical leader. I’m sure she’ll be stunned to learn that.
You don’t have to be a Christian to “comment”. However when you begin to say that beliefs of Christian leaders are anethema to Christian beliefs, that is crossing a line…since as a non-christian why should an actual christian care what your opinion on THEIR beliefs is!
I wouldn’t claim to know what BEING an illegal resident is like. I merely know what the law is…and that they are breaking it. But I sure wouldn’t tell them “wow, you are bad at being an illegal alien”. That is the difference. Nor would I tell Busby she is bad at being a democrat. I merely don’t care for the democratic party. So feel free to disagree with Christians…but don’t, as a non-christian, say they are somehow being christians incorrectly. Such an assertion coming from a non-believer is absurd.
Comment by Cross Tabs — April 11, 2006 @ 10:59 pm
Seriously, what the hell are you talking about? What is this guilt by association, and why again with your asshole attack remarks?
You seriously think that someone has to be a Christian in order to criticize someone who advocates the assassination of a foreign leader, or lays the blame for natural disaster at the feet of gays?
Such an assertion from ANYONE is absurd.
Regardless of my political beliefs (which I have yet to divulge), you don’t think it’s possible for someone to have studied religions and read their sacred texts without being a devout believer?
When did I say that I disagree with Christians, as a group? When have I criticized anyone other than specific leaders of the Christian Right?
And, since your Christianity evidently gives you the ability to comment on other people’s Christian-ness, what are your thoughts about the inflammatory rhetoric that I’ve been talking about this whole time? Do you, as a Christian, feel that it’s acceptable for someone who represents your faith and values to lay the blame for the 3000 Americans murdered on 9/11 on homosexuality?
Comment by Nik — April 11, 2006 @ 11:35 pm
Correction — that should be “Regardless of my religious beliefs”, not “political beliefs”.
Comment by Nik — April 11, 2006 @ 11:51 pm
“The problem is that conservative Christian values don’t seem to be universal — that protecting a fetus is more important than protecting a family of small children from mortar attacks.
The problem is that some Christians believe that scientific discovery and research is an attack on their faith, and therefore they try and suppress scientific results and attempt to minimize their legitimacy by forcing schools to teach sound science side-by-side with a completely laughable hypothesis with absolutely no intelligent scientific support.”
You wrote that, right? Right before you called Barbara Bush a conservative christian leader? So “When have I criticized anyone other than specific leaders of the Christian Right?” I’ll consider that paragraph I just cut and pasted from your post an answer to than snarky question.
In case you missed it, I never divulged my beliefs either. But you seem to think you know what they are, and have made assumptive remarks thereto. So lets cut the crap about not knowing where the other is coming from theologically. I think that those inflammatory remarks made by some christian conservatives are the opinion of those making them and may or may not be shared by their believers. HOWEVER, for you to say that such remarks are inconsistent with Christianity is total BS unless you are a believer yourself. Do I happen to believe that 9-11 was punishment for homosexuality? No. However homosexuality is roundly condemned and punishable by death in certain parts of the bible. Before you rush to put words in my mouth, do I believe homosexuals should be thusly treated? No way. However, for you to say that condemnation of homosexuality by a christian conservattive is anethema to christianity is flat out wrong. Anyone can read the texts. Unless you have committed your life to following those beliefs as ultimate truth, you can’t really know what it means to believe. You merely have a bunch of words. So when you tell a christian leader that THEIR words are anethema to Christianity…you don’t have a leg to stand on unless you are a committed Christian yourself.
Comment by Cross Tabs — April 12, 2006 @ 12:00 am
So, just wondering CT, when tons of Christians here in the US were/are saying that instead of fighting for Islam, suicide bombers and other terrorists are actually going against the teachings of Islam, did you tell them to shut up too? (ie how can they tell Muslims what is and isn’t Muslim if they aren’t one?) And did you tell the Bush administration and the Pentagon, who are doing psy ops and diplomacy type things across the middle east with that message, to shut up as well? (because they aren’t Muslim)
Comment by yeah right — April 12, 2006 @ 1:43 am
Um, actually it isn’t most of the Christians who are saying it. Ironically, mostly secularists make this “Islam is peaceful” argument. Most Christians I know think that is BS, and that it is a murderous religion just as they have demonstrated to us that it is. And yes, we are disappointed with Bush for peddling what we believe to be a myth, based solely on the evidence presented before us. I think he does it out of a need to be Presidential, and not have the sitgma of ostracizing a particular religion. I can’t speak for CT, but I have no idea what Muslims truly believe…the only thing I really know is that many of them believe in murdering Americans. Most people I know in the “Christian Right” think that as well. But again, thank you for telling us what we think, and lumping “tons” of us in together. I wasn’t aware “tons of christians” had ever been quoted as believing what you say they believe.
Comment by DC Guy — April 12, 2006 @ 2:38 am
CT: Actually, you did somewhat divulge your faith: “You’ll see one post about how christians should believe this this and this and the bible says this and that. And the very next post will be what a bunch of idiots christians are for believing in Jesus being resurrected. I know there are christians who (for some reason) believe what you believe. But my point is, there are mostly Nik’s out there who like to bash us, while not even sharing our beliefs.”
And DC Guy: What you wrote is frankly disgusting. Islam is, behind Christianity, the second largest religion in the world. Most Muslims are very peaceful.
The small handful of extremist fundamentalists causing all the problems in the Middle East are NOT representative of their faith.
Just look at your own words: “I have no idea what Muslims truly believe…the only thing I really know is that many of them believe in murdering Americans.”
You conveniently use the word “many” as a vague quantifier. Four people are “many”. A few thousand people are “many”. But when taken in proportion to the billion and a half (give or take) Muslims in the world, you’re really talking about a very miniscule proportion of the population causing a great deal of harm.
Comment by Nik — April 12, 2006 @ 3:43 pm
Hmm….so nothing about my comment proving you to have made a generalization about more christians than just “leaders” hmmm?
As for DC Guy’ comments, I think “many” would also refer to the muslims who took to the streets in Palestine and elsewhere on 9-11 celebrating the muder of Americans, right? I respect what he said. Although I don’t agree with all of it, at least he wasn’t making a statement of what “true Muslims” SHOULD believe and telling THEM how the Koran should dictate their lives. Therefore I find his commentary on Islam to at least be more genuine than yours on Christianity.
Comment by Cross Tabs — April 12, 2006 @ 4:20 pm
And by the way your “Lord save me from your followers.” speaks volumes as well. If you were a follower, you would need to be saved from yourself. So I guess I have you pegged as well. Again, as I said, lets cut the crap on that.
Comment by Cross Tabs — April 12, 2006 @ 4:21 pm
CT — I honestly think you and I just got off on the wrong foot. You’re reacting extremely defensively, so we’ll never see eye to eye. You simply cannot accept that I’m not attacking you or Christianity in general. I’ve perhaps not been as clear as I should have been at times, and every time I’ve been forthcoming with both an apology and clarification.
You, however, have been consistently hostile in your remarks to me and unwilling to actually engage me in an intellectually honest and friendly discussion.
You’ve also stated that you think THIS is more genuine than what I’ve been saying:
Ironically, mostly secularists make this “Islam is peaceful” argument. Most Christians I know think that is BS, and that it is a murderous religion just as they have demonstrated to us that it is.
I nit-picked the word “many” when I responded, because I deliberately choice to avoid touching on his “most”.
You really think that “most” Christians think Islam is a murderous religion? Do you agree with that? Is Islam any more “murderous” than Christianity? You really think that statements like these are more genuine than what I’ve said?
“Lord help me from your followers” is a freakin bumper sticker slogan. And I’ve seen it on many cars, even on ones with the “Jesus fish” on them. I’ve heard friends say it casually in conversation when discussing some of the comments and attitudes I’ve described above (and below). And yes, even Christian friends of several denominations — Orthodox, Catholic, and various flavors of Protestants. You might be surprised to learn that one of these people was studying religion and hoped to enter the seminary.
Most common-sense, mainstream Christians are upset with, ashamed of, and scared of extremist fundamentalist Christians who somehow are led to believe that they are being true to their faith when they do things like force schools to teach discredited hypothesis in science class, bomb abortion clinics, murder doctors, refuse to fill prescriptions at pharmacies, suppress the publication of scientific research, protest at hospices, protest at funerals (look up Fred Phelps sometime), etc.
I’ve never heard things like “most Christians think Islam is a murderous religion” and “everything I needed to know about Islam I learned on 9/11″ from an atheist or agnostic. Or from a Buddhist or Jewish person. Or from a moderate-to-liberal Christian. I’ve only heard ignorant, racist rhetoric like that come from right-wing conservative Christian extremists.
“Lord save me from your followers” says absolutely nothing about me — except that I’m just as upset, afraid, and ashamed that in 2006, after so much intellectual and technological advancement, there are still some people who are so ignorant, so wrongheaded, so violent, and so bigoted, that they determined to keep this country from making any progress.
If you’re curious, I suggest you check out Street Prophets. You might be surprised to learn that there is a very active and devout Christian Left and Christian Moderate who are tired of Chrisitianity being hijacked and defamed by a fraction of the Christian population causing a great deal of harm.
There’s a reason that some on the left have come to call the most extreme right-wing conservative Christian activists the “American Taliban”. The parallels are frightening.
Comment by Nik — April 13, 2006 @ 4:23 am
Anyway, I’ll give you the last word. I promise to read it, but not necessarily to respond. We’ve gone around in circles for far too long for either of us to realistically hope for any sort of mutual understanding or respect.
And I’m sorry for it.
Comment by Nik — April 13, 2006 @ 4:28 am
You are right, this is getting way tiresome.
First off, I do find DC guy’s remark more genuine, not because I agree with it, but because as a non-Muslim, he did not try to feign the knowledge that suicide bombers were disobeying the Quran. His thesis was, I’m not a Muslim, so a Muslim would know better than me, and I’ll leave it to them to sort it out. You pretended to know more about Christianity than the “Christian Right”. You claimed that the Christian Right make un-Christian statements when you are not a Christian. (if you would like to dispute that, go ahead, right after you save yourself from yourself). And then to go and lump all conservative christians in with abortion bombers and doctor murderers? How offensive! To mention that in the same group as those who have objections to filling certain prescriptions and who “protest” as if “protesting a hospice” is somehow in the same category as murder! You are outrageous! I know you will deny this, and say “no, no, no” but you are the one that put them in the same sentence, pal. And that is ridiculous. So I guess, again, my original point was don’t criticize conservative christians if you don’t share their faith. They don’t (and shouldn’t) care what YOUR opinion is on THEIR faith. And DC Guy’s remark was more genuine because, while I don’t AGREE with all of it, at least he wasn’t pretending to know more about a faith than the suicide bombers who practice it.
Comment by Cross Tabs — April 13, 2006 @ 9:14 pm
“No one is being anti-Christian, least of all me, by acknowledging that historically, people have used religion in order to accomplish some pretty horrible things.”
Yes, you are. First, your examples are not true. Second, government, especially anti-religious communist governments, have killed many more people than all religions lumped together.
“And whether the holocaust was based in Christianity or Hitler’s twisted paganist beliefs, the fact remains that Hitler and the German Nazi Party gained political power and widespread popular support in Germany by using Christianity in their propaganda.”
Says you. History tells me that Christians resisted Hitler.
“The swastika, after all, is a version of the Christian cross.”
Well, after all, it’s really not….seeing as the American Indians had a swastica in pre-European times, and India as well.
Your quickness to spout untruths about Christianity reveal your agenda.
Comment by Guy — April 17, 2006 @ 8:47 pm
Getting a person out of the grief they are in is much easy when you try to do it through a religion. So the Christian Drug rehabilitation is such a process.
…………………………………
Bhathiya Senanayake
Just use the keyword “Christian Drug Rehab” as the link in the signature
Christian Drug Rehab
Comment by Bhathiya Senanayake — June 23, 2008 @ 7:43 am